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Old 03-31-2018, 04:00 AM   #1
Firefly
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Default 2nd Amendment and Gun Law

Hey guys, I'm not looking for this to turn into a political debate, but I have a few questions regarding the subject. As a UK citizen we haven't had legalised guns (outside of small caliber rifles, mostly air, or shotguns for hunting purposes) since 1997.

So my question to you guys is What is the big deal with a ban on firearms? The Constitution gives you a right to bare arms but an arm isn't a gun it could be a knife, a sword hell even a slingshot. Am I missing something, I haven't done a huge amount of research into this as it just turns political every time.

I really want to know what the Constitution says, and why people believe a ban on guns is going to affect it in anyway. As previously mentioned you can still carry arms (if my understanding is correct)

I just don't understand why this is such a big deal.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:22 PM   #2
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“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.“ That is the verbatim definition. It basically is to prevent the government from pulling a stunt like England did back when we were trying to create our own country.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:20 PM   #3
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Here is an interesting video regarding the 2nd Amendment. This video doesn't discuss the meaning of "arms" specifically but it discusses the rest of the 2nd amendment and give a good context.

From what I've read, "arms" effectively meant "weapons commonly found among contemporary military arsenals." This would make the 2nd amendment intrinsically evolutionary, whcih means that the meaning evolves as the "weapons of the military" evolved. Since the military actually has far beyond what is currently "legally" allowed for civilians in the U.S., we are technically already being restricted more than the constitution allows (fully automatic weapons are basically outlawed).

"The people" need to have at least similar weapons to the military, to be able to maintain a "free state" (free country) by preventing the military/government from removing our freedoms.

I think that semi-automatic guns are likely to be the most effective thing that we can have. If they take that, we would never be able to defend our freedom.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:26 PM   #4
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A little late to the party, but just want to put my 2 cents in. The states evolved similarly to Canada, but the key difference is that they fought against the British for their independence and were around a lot longer than Canada was. It was necessary for Americans to protect themselves in a way that was different since Canadians had British and French forces to defend the people. Americans were left to their own devices which created a personality/temperament entirely different than Canadians. Their culture has been cultivated to make sure they could protect themselves from whomever threatened them whereas we've been socialized to trust the government to protect us. I know I'm just glossing over a lot of history, but I feel that's what it is in a nutshell.
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:43 PM   #5
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Most liberals you talk to about guns blame the AR 15 and the high capacity magazines. If you question them about what they are saying they have no answers, just more BS. My wife and I have had numerous conversations with liberal people and they won't even take us up on the offer for free education on the topic. Ignorance is "?". Bliss? no, ignorance.......
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:33 PM   #6
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JJ, I had no idea you hated liberals so much. I think I would fall under that generic category as I don't see the need for them. Again, depending on circumstances, I might have grown up thinking the other way. However, I would never say that citizens will ever need fully automatic weapons.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:06 PM   #7
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I think I would fall under that generic category as I don't see the need for them. Again, depending on circumstances, I might have grown up thinking the other way.
There are many people that don't have or want guns and still recognize the 2nd Amendment and its legitimacy.

I think that the biggest issues is that the left is using fear mongering techniques to convince people that guns are "bad". They say that "assault style rifles" need to be banned because of a few high-profile incidences. An "assault style rifle" is simply a gun that LOOKS scary compared to a rifle with exactly or nearly the same functionality.

Also, hand guns kill way more people.

However,given the available data, it has been shown that banning guns doesn't make a place safer, statistically. But also consider that banning guns in the United States would be extremely impractical logistically.

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However, I would never say that citizens will ever need fully automatic weapons.
I agree that fully automatic weapons would be unnecessary for private citizens. Hence why they've been illegal for nearly 90 years.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:06 PM   #8
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Well first we'd have to decide what safer means. But I'd say it's a hell of a lot safer here in Canada knowing that people can't walk around with guns unless they're breaking the law or if they're some type of law enforcement. I mean, I feel a lot safer just knowing With that being said, countries like Canada are indeed safer if you want to compare the statistics. In my opinion we're a lot safer here and better for having tighter, more restrictive gun laws.

Hand guns obviously kill more people because there are many more of them and easier to conceal but if I had it my way, I'd ban those too. But I never made this argument in the first place so this is probably moot.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:28 PM   #9
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Default Libs

I don't hate libs, I hate idiots that are blinded by lame stream medias brain washing! If they aren't willing to stop and listen to educated facts then I really have no use for them.

Guns are not bad, they in fact keep us safer. If you want to invite criminals just post a "gun free zone sign". I have assault style weapons and they have never been pointed at anyone. They are locked up in a safe that is almost as heavy as my car,,,,lol.

Technically the term of these rifles is "black rifles". Fully auto weapons are mostly for the military, although, you can own a full auto weapon with the proper licensing with the feds. I do not own one, but I have considered it a few times. For me it wouldn't be worth the extra money it would take to get one.

And criminals inherently don't obey laws! No matter how much gun legislation is made, it will not stop Johnny gang banger from doing exactly what the F he wants......

Education is the key to gun safety from the start. If you respect guns and are trained, you will most likely never have a bad experience with a gun. I carry a loaded weapon everyday and it has never gone off by itself. I have loaded weapons in my safe. Never gone off!

The heart of the person doing the deed is the problem. Keeping guns from people who intend on committing crime is another whole issue. More capital punishment? I don't know..
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [b7]fluid View Post
Well first we'd have to decide what safer means. But I'd say it's a hell of a lot safer here in Canada knowing that people can't walk around with guns unless they're breaking the law or if they're some type of law enforcement.
So, you how do you protect yourself from a criminal with a gun pointed at you? It is common sense to know that if a criminal knows that one house has guns and another that has no guns at all, they'll go for the one without guns . . . In this scenario, guns protected this house from a criminal and the guns needn't ever be used or even brandished.

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I mean, I feel a lot safer just knowing With that being said, countries like Canada are indeed safer if you want to compare the statistics. In my opinion we're a lot safer here and better for having tighter, more restrictive gun laws.
Even if there are statistics that show that Canada is "safer", that certainly does not mean that it's because of gun restrictions. Correlation is not the same as causation. Similarly, feeling safe and being safe are different.

Here are a couple articles that talk about some of the "facts" that some people like to use but are not accurate along with other reasons why guns are not always bad:

7 Facts On Gun Crime That Show Gun Control Doesn't Work

Six Facts That Show Gun Control Is Not The Answer

The articles talk about some of the countries/cities where gun bans didn't actually work (Washington D.C., Australia, Britain), how gun free zones don't work, how gun ownership and violence have negative correlation, how guns have likely saved many more lives than they have taken.

This video was quite interesting as well.
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Old 04-21-2018, 08:33 AM   #11
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Fysy, first of all I love you guys despite are disagreement with regards to gun legislation. Second, it's too early and too Saturday and a waste of a day to debate this topic. I will reconvene this on Monday when I'm more grumpy. Have a great weekend!
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Old 05-07-2018, 02:29 PM   #12
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It takes a finger to pull the trigger my friend

Ain't nothing wrong with firearms, I'm more interested in digging deeper and fixing the cause that drives these kids to ignore the light.
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:17 AM   #13
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u mean education ,bullying or gang-mentality or "video-gaming"? yah the USA isn't gonna fix that ...the gap keeps growing

I wonder if immigration mentality is different between our 3 countries (or acceptance in general)...though "gang"-violence is getting worse around the GTA.
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1) is it legal to bare arms in the street so long as its visible ?

2) "Education is the key to gun safety": like u said slayer....cruminals will just do criminal thing (and the mentally-negative)...education can't correct that....it'll only help those who accidentally shoot their kids or have their kids shoot themsevles.

3) Is there a difference between (gov)autos/military arsenal vs (public)Snipers/Pistols/Shotguns....and (gov)guns vs (public)melee weapons?
from fysixs posted...just seems like governemnt will always have the upperhand....and really your just protecting yourselves from your neighbour and not the government.

-----
A) prolly triple padding lock your entryways won't be a solution
B) Illegal trade/import wont' stop either...we getting that shit now in canada.
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Old 05-09-2018, 01:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
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u mean education ,bullying or gang-mentality or "video-gaming"? yah the USA isn't gonna fix that ...the gap keeps growing

Why do you think the gap keeps growing?
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:55 PM   #15
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u mean education ,bullying or gang-mentality or "video-gaming"? yah the USA isn't gonna fix that ...the gap keeps growing
I'm not sure what you mean by this. There is no good evidence that violent video games cause people to be violent. It's very likely that violent people tend to play violent video games.

There are many things that have gotten out of control (in the US and elsewhere) including education. There is always something that needs to be fixed.

The biggest thing here is that many people (especially many activists and many politicians) are trying to fix the symptom of a problem instead of actually solving the underlying problem.

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I wonder if immigration mentality is different between our 3 countries (or acceptance in general)...though "gang"-violence is getting worse around the GTA.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Sounds like an entirely different topic.

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1) is it legal to bare arms in the street so long as its visible ?
These types of gun laws vary by state (or other smaller law-making entities). In many places, it requires a permit to buy a handgun and then another permit to "concealed carry" it. Some places that allow you to carry, make it illegal to "brandish" the weapon unless you have a credible threat where you would very likely need to fire it (meaning that you can't just show it off to instill fear in people).


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2) "Education is the key to gun safety": like u said slayer....cruminals will just do criminal thing (and the mentally-negative)...education can't correct that....it'll only help those who accidentally shoot their kids or have their kids shoot themsevles.
I think that the biggest thing that firearms education would help solve is the irrational fear of all guns. The less you understand about someone/something, the more likely you are too have irrational fears about it.

I'm actually thinking about taking an "Intro to Handguns" class even though I have no plans to buy or own a handgun. That way, if I ever come across and even where I may need to pick one up, I won't be super ignorant. Having some knowledge about things like this could help you end a situation more quickly (e.g. instead of cowering in a corner).

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Originally Posted by Bait View Post
3) Is there a difference between (gov)autos/military arsenal vs (public)Snipers/Pistols/Shotguns....and (gov)guns vs (public)melee weapons?
There are a lot of things that the public are not allowed, legally, to possess. For example, burst and fully automatic are illegal for private citizens but are standard issue (e.g. M4A1) in the military.

I'm not sure of the complete list.

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from fysixs posted...just seems like governemnt will always have the upperhand....and really your just protecting yourselves from your neighbour and not the government.
On an individual level, yes. But, if the government ever tries something, The People can join together to fend them off. Essentially, the power is distributed such that no one person (or small group) can force their way. The only way to do something effectual [with guns] would be to have many many people all agree that the government is no longer our government.
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:44 PM   #16
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"I'm not sure what you mean by this."

Hence the quotes around "video-gaming"...can't really do airquotes unless there is a function that i don't know about. But there are fanaticals who believe that gaming is a cause. Gaming would be a minimal-causation if even that (ie honing a skill/thinking strategy/mentality)...compared to a more toxic or isolated upbringing/environment. But again there are extreme fanatics just like in the gun-debate
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immigration/acceptance.
in terms of educating these 2 topics, just curious how much gun-violence in USA is attributed to either topic. Seems like the gun-violence ,thats on the rise , in the GTA is specific to within 1-2 races/cultures (uinless i'm wrong Fluid...at least teh media ones anyways)....so

Shit yesterday, some old white guy walked by my mom while she was yarding, and yelled stupid chinese people...cuz his dinky dog got chased by a neighbours dog...even tho alot of dogs go unleashed.

seems like our nations acceptance/tolerance view is degrading even tho our PM preaches it.
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"educating on irrational fears"
1) doesn't seem to go well in USA...regardless of the fear
2) would it even eliminate teh violence? or just provide acceptance of teh violence, considering causation or not?
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"The People can join together to fend them off"
"to have many many people all agree"

but if the constitution is w.r.t.(rather against) government and with the comparison of weapons lists allowed per each party (gov. vs civil./public) ...it seems that the right to bare arms seems useless if the governing party always has the best tech/weaponry en masse...how big would the uprising need to be to be equal/fair. Its not like the public can stockpile explosives & shields/riot gear (well not sure about this latter one)

Would perhaps a better solution be to remove the individual's right to ownership , and provide a town/city gun-facility available to the public (tax-payers) sans government? I guess control would be an issue.
------------

Ther'es probably no perfect solution given Canada's Gun Laws and the current increase in gun violence we are seeing. Hell, our recent vehicular manslaughter was "awesome" news...and the media's reason behind it just as stupid!!
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:58 PM   #17
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[yah yah i gotta learn to use the quote function]
"It takes a finger to pull the trigger my friend... digging deeper and fixing the cause that drives these kids to ignore the light."

"Why do you think the gap keeps growing?"

i found this article today fascinating (on education not gun-violence)
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/u...ilippines.html

but in general....seems like USA & Canada not interested in tax hikes compared to the Nordic countries (population size is an issue too). And public schools /extra-curricular -- particularly in the poorer regions -- start lose funding even though parents are allowed to donate to private schools ...starting that gap increase.

In terms of gun-violence, seems like the funded-schools may be able to provide more opportunities (experiences /purpose) keeping the kids minds elsewhere but bullying is bullying not sure how you'd educate on stopping that ...seems like that spirals from the household aka parenting.
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Old 05-10-2018, 02:23 PM   #18
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I'd like to think I'm a pretty good authority on gun control laws but I haven't looked at too much current research on the topic. It's been a while since I got my criminology degree but my beliefs became stronger with further education not less.

To me gun laws share a commonality with capitol punishment. The threat of/finality of outcome is a main concern for me. Guns like the death sentence are not necessary in a modern society.
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:00 PM   #19
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I'm pretty certain you can't sell that in the US. Hundreds of millions of safe gun owners!
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:53 PM   #20
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Gun controls laws don't seem to work when actually implemented as shown in the links I posted above. Just because something sounds good doesn't make it good in actuality.

Capital punishment is an entirely different subject and is not really related to the gun debate.
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